Talk:2009 - (07/17/2009) Version Update Sneak Peek
Seriously? Bells (Flipping bells, spawned out of an annoying event trophy) and Cooking (Which has always been the easiest craft) get an update, but they can't deal with THF and BLM issues. WTFSE? Oh, and the Ebisu Rod is getting an update. How many players have those again; like 20%? Hey why don't you give more broken jobs adjustments while your at it? Oh wait... You made RDM en-spells better and gave NINs a 2hr that no longer has a drawback. What part of "SE is doing what the fans want..." are they actually doing? If they are going by how many people are playing the jobs, what do you expect when you make them whole population dependant on them? The only good update they have made in months, if not this year, is WHM; SMN to a lesser extent. For real... This news made me frown on SE; it's stupid. p.s. - Speaking of SMN... What about those new avatars, that were in the testing phase? Hmmm... --Dijidl 11:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC) :I keep hearing this about people wanting THF and BLM "fixed". What the heck is actually wrong with them? Okay... they improved a two-hour that no one really used for anything other than a "free" D3, and made RDM so they could actually melee without people laughing at them. Those seem appropriate. Let's try to remember that BST and MNK previously went two years without anything, including the latter that didn't even get the level 70 JSE that everyone else seemed to get. And when they did it was what, Footwork? I can't think of a single thing wrong with THF or BLM... :Also, given that they're looking at WoW and LotRO and other games as a model, and those people are insane about their horns, lutes, and what have you, it's understandable that SE would code something relatively easy to compare. The abundance of new pseudo-instances are also examples of this. Okay, so /bell is rather pointless, yes. But it's still one inventory slot for a few players that want to have fun with it. The curry thing was a popular event in Japan, and it's coming over here. :Maybe this is all there's going to be for the update. It's not like it's a lot. NIN changes, /bell, curry buns, upgrades to the Ebisu, more FoV regimes, new high-level weapons for both crafters and classes, new BLU spells, updating circle abilities, more MMM, more WotG quests and missions, a brand new quest line with amazing but ugly rewards... what were they thinking, not giving THF a new toy? Jerks. --Baroness 13:46, 17 July 2009 (UTC) :*Maybe I'm not aware of the issue, but I don't think there's anything wrong with BLM, tbh. They're powerhouses when it comes to spike damage but that draws a lot of hate, so in order to play the job you have to learn how to manage the damage vs. hate ratio. I mean, seriously, no other job can one-shot EM monsters. It just requires a different playstyle is all, not a retooling of the job. If anything, SE needs to either gimp solo weaponskills or increase MB damage to get them back in regular exp parties. Skillchains and Magic Bursts are a unique and fascinating aspect of FFXI, and I'd like to see people actually use them rather than just TP burn because "it's simple". And although THF is rather useless in endgame except for Treasure Hunter, SE has repeatedly said that THF isn't a serious DD, it's a support type role, specifically for hate control, and they've underlined that point with the Accomplice and Collaborator JAs. If you want to play a DD, level a DD job like SAM or WAR, don't make SE ruin THF for the rest of us. On another note, I like the /bell command, not that I use it that often. It adds personality to the game. :3 I do, however, agree that cooking is definitely not in need of new recepies. The NIN 2-hour update is pretty good. Lots of 2-hour abilities don't have drawbacks, why should NIN's? I think people are being too harsh on SE. We (myself included) need to stop being armchair quarterbacks and let them run their game. What's that quote that Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw says? "Fans are clinging complaining dips... who will never ever be grateful for any concession you make"? Yeah. --Anobi 16:22, 17 July 2009 (UTC) To the above post, I believe the entire reason Thieves are annoyed because 1.) Any decent tank doesn't *need* a Thief. and 2.) and DD can just sub THF, do better damage and put it all on the hate just as well, so yeah, I would assume not really having a single niche other than whoring a job trait that no one really understands how it works 100% would be a nice thing. I'll agree on BLM, it sounds good on paper, except the only thing they're not invited to DD for is exp parties, and that's not because of their inability, that's because the popular exp mobs point and laugh at their nukes due to inherit resist rates, not because BLM isn't strong. Agreeing on everything but the Thief point.. You should probably let all of your filters be set to, "Off" and watch a SAM or DRK sub THF and the hate transfer their hugely superior damage allows. Thief is a hate specialist that controls hate through damage (Trick Attack), Trick Attack is lv 30, daggers have disproportionate dmg/delay ratios, Thieves don't hav an A+ weapon rating like the DD who could /THF, and they don't have the 2H modifier.. Collaborator is a situational use, and while not as useless as some situational abilities like counterstance, or composure (This being in terms for exp parties and events) it's certainly not like it helps anything in terms of hate management. Alot of linkshells now won't care on God/HNM fights if a THF is actually weaponskilling, did they get on the hate roster? Good, then let the other "real DD" who subbed THF control hate. I do wonder what the stats will be for curry rolls... Hm.. ::* The problem is and always has been the active BLM community vs. the portion of the community that pretends to understand BLM. The problem comes in that the "spike DMG" is not necessarily proportionate on different mobs, nor from different players, and has always been more gear dependent than most jobs. Also BLM must inevitablely gear towards doing only this spike dmg as it has no flexibility and many broken traits. While having high clear mind might sound appealing it isn't whne you have to sit on your duff for several minutes after blowing through thousands of mp in a single bout. So blm's rather than whining all these yrs for a patch have had to roll w/ the punches and learn MP management to a far greater extent than most other jobs. So when i say broken traits what do i mean? For starters lets compare BLM's Conserve MP trait vs PuPs Stormwakers Conserve MP Part. The pup part allows the automoton to conserve a flat % per spell, while the blm trait randomly procs, conserving a random value, its not a stat that blm's activly gear towards, therefore useless. Magic Bursting... i don't need to explain how dmg from MBing is busted; but i will, mobs like colibri w/ high M-Def and colibri to greater w/ refelct usually make a blm a less than desired canidate to bring in vs birds, and the fact that most pt's will not setup SC's on a regular basis makes it rather difficult to take advantage of any dmg boost found here. When i started slinging BLM DD you were considered a poor BLM if you could not double burst on a SC, now i doubt most modern BLM's have even the capability to get one MB, let alone 2. Hate Managment: In all honesty it is utter B.S. that SE would give all other DD's a Form of hate managment and not BLM, the fact that BLM's had to develop a system of spike dmg restraint is not the measure of spike DD. can you imagine if SE said ok for this new patch TA no longer tansfers hate for THFs, so THFs hold back or learn to love dieing, and couincidently slow down exp for a normal pt, or figure out how to solo (THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO BLMS, incase you were blind for the last 6 yrs BLMs could easily pull hate, and tanks no longer wanted a job in pt's that made it near impossible to tank along w/ and would break exp chains, or they would cast 1 maybe 2 spells tops in a pt resulting in smaller overall dd contribution.) 2HR: It in no way shape or form is a great 2hr, blm's problem isn't necessaly not ever having MP to cast so it either is rarely used except in certian BCNM/Mission fights (Usually MB format), i'm not saying the 2hr is broke persay but it either needs a time estension because of how long the spells take to cast (u on avg get 2-3 high DD spells off in its short duration), or needs some other addtional effect. Enfeebling: unless you have merits and are a rdm it serves no real point on blm except for soloing. (FIX IT!) Only one JA: >.> --Lastly BLMs are easy to satisfy hell we have put up w/ only nerfs in teh past 6yrs so we tend not to be that loud or vocal about or job, the easiest fix would be a few new toys fro blm. If you give a BLM Aspir II watch us all drool (and b4 some idiot DRK comes in and says *in a burly voice* "DRK is King of Absorb spells, this is not blanced in the least bit blah blah blah i'm emo..." Apart from myself i didn't hear the blm community complain when DRK got a super Potent Spike spell (in case you missed that part, BLM not complaining when DRK got a spell from a spell set that BLM is considered the master of.) Additionally it would be wonderful SE if you would give us the rest of the spike spells and maybe a fire based enfeeble (hint Amnesia hint hint, its not liek you'll actually let us land it on any mob.) KTHXBAI Milotheshort 16:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC) ::*Ok, I guess that's good to know, but I still don't agree with your arguement. Sure, spike damage is different on different mobs, because each monster has their own affinities, strengths, and weaknesses. If SE made each spell the same on each mob, we'd have a very boring system. Also, part of being a BLM is being a glass cannon. From what it sounds like, (using what I've gleaned from your agruement,) SE needs to gimp the effects of BLM gear on BLM spells, and gimp BLM spells in general such that BLMs can blast regular mobs with Tier 2 Ancient Magics without drawing hate, but at the same time increase damage for Magic Bursts and lower the MP cost of spells so you can nuke more. :::It seems like all the tweaks and additions that people want for their various jobs are entirely selfish, without regard for game balance. Each job has the potential to pull hate from the tank in some way, whether it's DoT or Spike damage, and players have to learn to control that, and to rely on party mates to keep hate where it belongs. Not everyone can be #1 on the damage parser all the time. (in their defense, some of the tweaks and additions that SE have made haven't been very balanced, either, but breaking something twice doesn't fix it. <.< >.> <.< ) --Anobi 00:32, 19 July 2009 (UTC) I do believe it was stated that the avatars are coming later this year... as in fall or winter. As for "SE is doing what the fans want", keep in mind that's 'the fans', not 'a fan'. And the Ebisu Rod, that percentage is closer to 2%, but it's still the Relic of fishing rods, and chances are any increase in its potency is one that is long overdue. I'm not sure who, but there must be some group of players that has been calling upon SE for more Bell functionality... it's either that, or it had been originally planned, but they ran out of time to code it in last time. I'm looking forward to finding out if the Curry Buns are another gag item, like the Cheese Sandwich, or if they're going to be something significant - perhaps 30 minute, stackable versions of existing Yellow/Red (and Black/Green) Curry. That would be nice. I could see a simple crafting recipe for it, too. As an example of what I think it might turn out as... Curry Bun Red Curry Bun (stats the same as Red Curry, except 30 minute duration and 12 x stackable) * 1 x Red Curry * 3 x Honey * 3 x Rock Salt * 3 x San d'Orian Flour * 3 x Selbina Butter Result: Red Curry Bun x 6 HQ: --- Recipe I threw together here is based loosely on the Sausage Roll, but utilizes more ingredients as stuffed buns take a little more dough to make than rolls like the sausage rolls do, and due to the larger number of items resulting from the synth. ...Although, while I'd like to see something like this, I'm expecting it'll end up a gag item like the Cheese Sandwiches were.--Volkai 13:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC) :*You obviously don't craft >.> like... um... at all. you have tooo many ingredients there the max for any recipe is 8 mats. you have 13. Additionally SE will more than likely introduce a "powder" either as an additional synth or available from a vendor. Milotheshort 16:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC) ::* Pro Tip, you can put more than one of an item in a slot if it stacks. Honey, Rock Salt, and Selbina Butter all stack up to 12 per slot. The synthesis takes up seven of the eight available item slots. Here, I'll put it slot-by-slot for you: Fire Crystal # 1 x Red Curry # 3 x Honey # 3 x Rock Salt # 1 x San d'Orian Flour # 1 x San d'Orian Flour # 1 x San d'Orian Flour # 3 x Selbina Butter # EMPTY Make more sense to you now, Milo? ::* Find 1 (one) recipie that uses more than 8 materials (Hint: You won't) If the synth was ANYTHING like that, they would introduce a synth that combined some of those items into something else (like the flours and butters) then have those items combined. I would wager that you cannot have more than 8 items in a synth, period. NadulPandy 00:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Oh, and for the record, my highest craft is 33. --Volkai 18:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC) :::* Pro:Pro Tip look at any synths; ANY, you can only have 8 individual ingredients even in recipes calling for more than one of the same ingredient. go ahead check it out i'll wait... find one that had more than 8 individual mats, even the stackable ones? didn't think so. P.S. 100+3 WW 100+7 Cooking almost 100 CC, BC, and GS. P.S.S. when you use more than 8 ingredients in a synthe it will return a lovely error message (Too many ingredients) KTHX Milotheshort 00:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC) pretty expensive to make if thats the recipe.. It appears this is all they are going to add to the version update. But I agree with the above poster, there are tons of things that SE could of done that would have melted the community = *Smn needs all sorts of love. Ever sense the Rage/Ward patch, many avatars could really use some improved BP:Wards (Ramuh comes to mind), not to mention they promised Smn they would get 2 new avatars sense my mother's birth. *Dnc WANT to tank, they are so close to becoming tanks, but they are waiting to SE to put in something (else) to hold hate (before merits) *Now that Nin is going to get a ninja tool exp. via a JA, It would be nice if Rng (besides unlimited-shot), and even-more-so Cor, got an earlier level Recycle-bonus somehow, to curve costs. *Unless the new Killer Instinct is going to be butch, Bst could really use something that makes it unique in late game content. I won't go into details. *Brds have ask for the longest time a JA which helps with soloing (speed). *Pup attachment "Tactical Processor" is still considered useless/broke/underwhelming. *Of course there are also Blms and Thfs Even if you don't agree with everything above, I believe everyone agrees that "curry buns" is a waste of development time & money when considering to the current state of class balance/need. *end rant*--Sikekiz 15:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Pretty sure this isn't all they're going to add, just all we're going to see before the update is implemented. There's usually a chunk of stuff that isn't announced before the day of. Oh, and I'm afraid you're mistaken about what everyone agrees on, Sikekiz. --Volkai 15:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Is this really appropriate for a talk page? --Zhizi 16:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Well... yeah. It is. We're talking about the content of the article which relates to the update. What's to be inappropriate about it? --Volkai 16:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC) :The point of the talk page is to discuss changes, additions, and updates to an article. Seeing as how it's a locked article, changes in this case could only be typographical or clerical errors. The discussion here is basically directed towards a company and other individuals on the talk page. I feel that this type of discussion is better carried out in the forums. Flooding of talk pages with non-wiki relevant information only started in the last few months. --Zhizi 19:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Personally, I've yet to meet a dancer who is begging to tank. --Shentok 16:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC) YAY! Go SE! *rubs his Ebisu rod* At last, an update I can get excited about! --Scrollios 17:03, 17 July 2009 (UTC) ...THF and BLM will instantly come back to exp-party prominence as soon as skillchains and magic bursts matter for said parties (remember the pre-AU days when a party didn't exist without a thief for SATA-Viper Bite?). Given how easily BLM end up in endgame situations, they probably don't need as much of a boost as one would think. It's the getting to 75 that's the problem with them, not a lack of options once there. Most of which can be blamed on Colibri parroting and Deafening Tantara. THF, however, could probably use something a little more effective in the I-can't-sub-it-in category. Tristan Kain 18:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC) huh?! All of these tweaks seem to bring very little to the game. This feels more like the april fools day post than an actual update to me, though being July, seems unlikely. Bells update? I don't log in to make you tube clips with bells. It's quirky, it sounds fun, but really... it hardly seems worth mentioning. A new recipe? Uhm.. okay? I must have missed something about why we would care about curry buns? I would hafta imagine it;s the same group of people who get excited about bell tones. I don't fish, but I'm assuming that of the three updates will be the best of those mentioned. It just seems so underwhelming. Hopefully this update update is simply here to lower everyone's expectations so that the next post about it will completely blow us away. With so many people waiting around for different issues to be addressed, or different jobs to get filled with some new life, bells and curry buns seems weak.--DarkTrance 18:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC) Annoying bells, Fishing, and 1 recipe for cooking?!? What the hell is wrong with this company? Who the hell cares if we get bells?? Do you really need an image and a whole paragraph to represent a few sound clips and animations added?? Regarding the fishing rod, OK, that's fine. But, why don't you make it EASIER to obtain? To those of you who spent 30 days in trying to obtain this rod... SCREW OFF... the rest of us aren't losers who can donate our lives to getting a graphic with words over it labeled 'Ebitchu Fishing Rod'... did I spell that right? COOKING.... umm....arent there 7 other crafts we could be getting more recipes for? Honestly, though... As Sikesiz put, there are a lot of developmental flaws in the way they are balancing the jobs; that is the main point of my rant, development into virtually trivial stuff instead of putting effort into fixing real problems and answering some pretty popular demands. I sort of agree, Baroness, on MNK needing some love too, but they are already powerhouses and can wear a lot of the best gear in the game; they certainly aren't starving for invites either. BST is also in need of some attention, but they can solo until the cows come home, as far as XP goes; they could use some adjustments to be more party-friendly, however. I don't play enough of MNK and BST to comment further than that. As for THF problems: *The problem with THF is that they have become virtually useless, save treasure hunter; and even that is not good enough in some cases, because everyone wants TH4 and not everyone has the time to do Dynamis, forever, to get it. It may not be the same for all servers but on mine the waiting list in most good dynamis shells is long; so out the gate THFs have a handicap until they aquire it. *SATA is useless, for THF, because SAM or DRK can /THF and do significantly more DMG; making THF virtually obsolete in party situations, except to be a puller (yawn). *Accomplice and Collaborator are too long to recast, to be effective, except to take hate off of mages; it has spotted uses, at best and pulls you away from battle to run all the way to the mages because the range is lacking. *All that shiny evasion does nothing, when you don't get any attention from mobs; I could say it's great for farming, but SE has butchered that due to RMT shenanigans. It's great for pulling (yawn). *Pulling can be done by an abundance of jobs, in some cases better; SMN, BRD, BST, RNG, COR, and SAM all have more to bring to a party setup and can perform this function. It was my first and is still my favorite job; I am just tired of having to get passed over for everything post level 50. Missions, Assaults, and a few other examples come to mind; and even when THFs do get an invite, they become a sideline item for drops and can't stand alone on their skill. Suggestions: *THF could use more variety in sub-job selection. I would love to be able to dual-wield without having to /NIN. (This is also a suggestion that would benefit DNC, greatly...) I would gladly give up shadows for plenty of other abilities; but dual-wield is something that most THFs need greatly, so we are forced to /NIN. *Give THF a significant hate tool so they can use the evasion to tank; on Asura there is a major shortage of tanks. THFs and DNCs could easily fill the need with minimal development effort by SE, in my opinion. (MNK could also be a good fill in with minimal effort...) *Accomplice and Collaborator could use some decent adjustments as well, like better range and an ability to redirect that hate to another party member, like the tank. (Kind of like a charged ability, steal enmity for a charge, and use the charge to throw out spiked enmity to redirect hate, in wavering situations like a BLM nuke that pulls too much hate.) *Give them an ability that is unique to the job that can't be mimicked by another job to DD or mitigate enmity; like a mode switch ability. (Something I mentioned numerous times in in-game and LS discussions, waaaaay before the NIN news...) One mode gives decent bonuses to crits and triple attacks (with a penelty to evasion, parry, etc.) and the other mode grants the opposite. I don't think any of these suggestion breaks any kind of game mechanics or hurts the playing field for any other jobs; the intention is to simply make THF more party/event desired, again, without the Treasure Hunter crutch. And really, just one of these would do wonders for the job, IMHO. p.s. - I know a lot of DNCs that are wanting to be tanks; I am one of them.--Dijidl 20:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC) True, a lot of people would love to have dual wield without /nin, but that would be detracting from the job. Nin is a bitch sub anyway and is terribly abused because of dual wield anyway, but it's still a hallmark for the job. I think what thf really needs for subs is for people to stop thinking of THF as automatically THF/NIN and start realizing that thf/war puts out way more damage in WSs, and thf/dnc can be a handy buffer/debuffer, particularly for cases when you have a DD/thf for massive SA/TA damage. That's just my 2 cents. --Anobi 03:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC) It's not Squenix's fault "It's not Squenix's fault" I see the the noble white knights of the internet are out defending the poor and helpless SE from the malaise of its own customers.--Sikekiz 14:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC) Incidently... Dual-wield is not the defining trait of a NIN; Ninjitsu, namely Utsusemi, is just as important, if not more. There are a good enough number of jobs that don't even use dual-wield when /NIN, but they ALL use Utsusemi. That is not even close to a good excuse for not giving THFs, DNCs, or even WARs (the supposed champions of combat) a dual-wield trait of their own; multiple jobs can wield two handed weapons, multiple jobs share numerous spells, and multiple jobs share various abilities; so, why couldn't multiple jobs dual-wield? It's just that simple. I hear a lot of people bitching about people bitching... Now there is something that definitely isn't SE's fault. I have played THF long enough to make rational comparisons and see how the job has seriously declined over the years, because I have invested the time. And, if you want to throw stones at people complaining about a job, there are plenty of others that have been complaining about their favorite jobs. Ummm... Did one of the most broken jobs in the game, RDM, really need a boost to their melee damage, above the wants of other jobs in the game who have seen no attention in years, like BLM? We can wish what we want; deal with it. BTW: THF/WAR out DD THF/NIN? I hope you have proof of that statement; the main reason THF sub NIN is for extra DMG and stats. We can't tank, remember? We aren't supposed to get hit; so, shadows are useless. I think you have your numbers crossed somewhere. And, my comments on Accomplice and Collaborator are fine the way they are; it is a bit lacking and could be better. Peace... --Dijidl 07:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC) :Just to clear up a few points, in FF Tactics and Tactics Advanced, ONLY the ninja job got dual wield. So yes, Dual Wield is a defining trait of Ninja, just as Jump is a defining trait of Dragoon. Utsusemi only appears in FFXI, and being ninjutsu that only nins can cast, is also a defining trait of Ninja. Thf/war deals higher weapon skill damage. I can't and didn't say that thf/war is a better DD than thf/nin because I don't parse. But as for spike damage; Berserk plus Warcry plus /war's Damage Bonus trait, plus SA/TA/WS. --Anobi 00:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Perhaps like PUP getting Martial Arts at lower intervals than MNK, THF/WAR/DNC could also gain an inate Dual Wield at lower rate, say the same levels PUP gets MA. This would open the jobs up for much more, taking away Utsusemi yes, (Which I use a LOT for pulling... Stupid birds.) but like Mnk/Drg offering nice spikes of damage with Jump because both fists strike, and occasionally proc a kick attack, Thf/Drg could have both daggers strike and possibly proc triple attack! ...Random tangent. What I would really like to see is a rehash of a THF's 2hour. Two ideas from yesterday were: 1) Give Perfect Dodge a HUGE hate pull, making it at least as useful as Invincible or 2) Give Thieves a massive single-strike melee hit, not unlike a close-range Eagle Eye Shot?--Deraverse 21:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC) :THF with Throat Stab type move, but obviously it won't drop HP to 1%; it would be cool if it had a decent timer. Like a one minute timer, maybe two minutes. And, base it's accuracy or strength on TP or even use it to reset your hate, i.e. Accomplice/Collaborator > BLM > Throat Stab and the hate would disappear after a nuke and tank could regain control a lot easier, in some cases without doing anything. That would also open up possibilities for other jobs to tank since you erase the hate spikes hurting their control, it would make Accomplice/Collaborator less cumbersome and more functional in battle, and it would add to party strategy and make MBs, hopefully, come back to popular party play.--Dijidl 13:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)